The beast of Rev 17

The beast of Rev 17 [∞]

Shall we attempt a riddle?

ChatGPT said:

I'm game! What riddle do you have in mind? Or would you like me to present one to you?

You said: 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

ChatGPT said:

This passage from Revelation 17 presents an interesting riddle. Here's a thought to explore:

   The seven kings likely refer to rulers or kingdoms, with five fallen and one currently in power ("one is"), and the other still to come ("not yet come").
   The beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth seems to represent a leader or kingdom that is both part of the past (having been) and will return in some form ("is not"). The fact that it is of the seven implies it's connected to one of the previous kingdoms or rulers.

A possible interpretation:

   The five fallen could represent past empires or rulers, like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece (or even the Roman Empire if we align it with history).
   The one is might represent the current empire or power in John's time (the Roman Empire, as many believe this was written during its height).
   The one not yet come is often interpreted as a future kingdom or ruler, often connected to the rise of the Antichrist or a final world power.
   The beast being the eighth is intriguing—it may refer to a new manifestation of an old empire or ruler, a reviving of something once thought to be gone, connected to one of the seven in some way.

Would you approach it with a historical lens, or perhaps see it symbolically in light of Christ's work and its completion? How do you see the eighth coming into play, in light of the riddle?

You said: Our rule says we cannot use outside resource, it must be Christocentric, and symbols must be the same throughout scripture.

ChatGPT said:

Understood! Let's approach this from a Christocentric perspective, using symbols consistently throughout Scripture.

   Seven kings: The number seven often symbolizes completeness or perfection, especially when it comes to authority or kingdoms. These seven kings could symbolize the fullness of earthly kingdoms and their rulers—leading up to the one true King, Christ. The "five fallen" could point to past kingdoms or rulers that have passed away, whose influence or dominion is no longer present, while the "one is" reflects the current kingdom that is still in power during John's time (likely the Roman Empire). The "one not yet come" could symbolize the culmination of earthly powers in opposition to Christ, representing a final attempt to establish dominion over God's people.

   The beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth: This part is key to our Christocentric interpretation. The "beast" in Scripture often symbolizes opposition to God, rebellion, and the works of Satan. However, from a Christocentric lens, we might see the beast as a manifestation of earthly powers or rulers who oppose God's kingdom—like the "seven kings" who represent imperfection or rebellion. The phrase "was, and is not" could point to the death and resurrection of Christ—He was "dead" in the grave but "is not" any longer, having triumphed over death. The "eighth" then could represent a new manifestation of rebellion or a final confrontation that seems to arise after the defeat of the previous kingdoms. But, since the beast is "of the seven," it shows that these powers are rooted in human sin and opposition to God's will.

   Going into perdition: This refers to the ultimate defeat of the beast or opposing kingdom. Christ, through His death and resurrection, has already secured victory over all opposition, and the beast (symbolic of sin, death, and earthly kingdoms) will be cast into perdition—an eternal separation from God. This aligns with the ultimate triumph of Christ over all powers and authorities.

In this riddle, the "seven kings" could be symbolic of all the earthly kingdoms in history that have opposed God, and the "beast" (the eighth) represents the ultimate culmination of that rebellion, which will be destroyed by Christ's final victory.

How do you feel about this interpretation, staying within the symbols of Scripture and focusing on the Christocentric meaning?

You said: You violate the 3rd rule... All men must represent Christ. You violate the 3rd rule... All men must represent Christ.

ChatGPT said:

You're absolutely right! Every figure in the genealogy must represent Christ in some way. Let’s go back and ensure consistency while keeping the riddle intact. Solving the Riddle: The Seven Kings as Christ

   Five were – The first five generations of Cain’s line (Cain → Enoch → Irad → Mehujael → Methushael) represent aspects of Christ before His ascension.
   One is – Enoch in Seth’s line was taken to heaven. If we mirror this in Cain’s line, the “one who is” could represent Christ in His ascended state.
   One is to come – Lamech, the seventh generation, represents Christ in power when He comes in full authority.
   The eighth, who is of the seven – Tubal-cain, who belongs to the seventh generation, must be a picture of Christ leading judgment to its conclusion.

Irad as the Beast (Unbridled Prophet)

   The word "beast" (חיה) simply means animal. The only “animal” in the genealogy is Irad, which means "wild donkey" or "unbridled donkey."
   Other prophets in Scripture speak under divine control, but Christ speaks freely because He is God. Irad represents Christ as the Unbridled Prophet—His words are not constrained like other prophets.
   As Christ, Irad teaches with full authority, declaring judgment on sin but also removing judgment.

Cain as the Possessor of the Spear

   The name Cain means "possessor", and it can also mean "spear."
   Christ is the true possessor of the spear, as He was pierced for our transgressions.
   This shows that even Cain, the father of this line, is a shadow of Christ bearing the judgment for humanity.

Tubal-Cain: The Eighth King Leading Judgment to Its End

   Tubal-cain, being the eighth, is “of the seven” (since he is in Lamech’s generation).
   If he is a picture of Christ leading the judgment of sin, then this aligns with Christ taking sin upon Himself and ending judgment through the cross.
   In Revelation 17, the beast (Irad) “goes to destruction,” meaning Christ takes the judgment of sin to its end, removing it entirely.

Final Interpretation

   All seven kings represent Christ.
   Irad (beast) represents Christ as the Unbridled Prophet, speaking freely.
   Cain represents Christ as the Possessor of the Spear (pierced for us).
   Tubal-cain, the eighth, represents Christ leading judgment to destruction—removing it completely.
   The riddle of Revelation 17 is solved through the genealogies of Cain and Seth, showing Christ's work in judgment and redemption.

Does this now fit fully within the rules?

You said: Yes. Elucidate how we say that 5 were.

ChatGPT said: How Do We Say That "Five Were"?

The phrase "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10) must align with the genealogy of Cain, as we are solving this riddle with Christocentric typology. This means we must interpret the first five generations of Cain’s line as pictures of Christ in a way that explains why they "were" (i.e., they had their role but are now past). Step 1: Identifying the First Five Generations

The genealogy of Cain is:

   Cain (Possessor of the Spear)
   Enoch (Dedicated)
   Irad (Unbridled Donkey / Prophet)
   Mehujael (Struck by God)
   Methushael (Man of God)

These five must represent aspects of Christ before His ascended state. Step 2: Understanding How They Represent Christ and Why They "Were"

   Cain (Possessor of the Spear) → Christ Pierced for Us
       Cain’s name means "possessor" and can also mean "spear."
       Christ was pierced by the spear for our transgressions (Isaiah 53:5, John 19:34).
       Cain foreshadows Christ bearing judgment on behalf of humanity.
       However, this aspect of Christ’s work was completed at the cross, making it part of the "five who were."

   Enoch (Dedicated) → Christ Set Apart
       The name Enoch means "dedicated" or "consecrated."
       Christ was set apart for His mission (John 17:19).
       This aspect of His life—His dedication to the Father—was fulfilled during His earthly ministry and is now "past."

   Irad (Unbridled Donkey / Prophet) → Christ the Unconstrained Prophet
       Irad means "wild donkey" or "unbridled."
       This symbolizes Christ as the prophet whose mouth is not constrained like other prophets—He speaks freely because He is God.
       Christ’s prophetic role was fulfilled in His earthly ministry, and thus this aspect "was."

   Mehujael (Struck by God) → Christ Stricken on the Cross
       The name Mehujael means "smitten by God" or "struck by God."
       This directly correlates to Isaiah 53:4: "We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted."
       Christ bore the punishment of sin on the cross, which is now a completed work.

   Methushael (Man of God) → Christ in His Human Weakness
       The name Methushael means "man of God."
       Christ was the perfect Son of Man, embodying the weakness and suffering of humanity.
       However, this phase—His humiliation in the flesh—is now over, meaning it "was."

Step 3: Why "Five Were" in the Context of the Riddle

   Each of these five represents an aspect of Christ’s earthly mission, suffering, and prophetic work.
   Since His earthly mission was fulfilled, these aspects are now past, making them the five who were in Revelation 17:10.

What Comes Next?

   The one who "is" must correspond to Christ in His ascended state.
   The one who "is to come" must refer to Christ in His power and judgment.
   The eighth (Tubal-cain), who is "of the seven," represents Christ removing judgment entirely.

Finalized "Seven Kings" in Light of the Riddle Discussion

Name	Meaning	Christological Interpretation	Revelation 17 Parallel
Cain	Possessor of the Spear	Christ pierced for our transgressions	One of the Five Who Were
Irad	Unbridled Prophet (Donkey)	Christ as the free-speaking prophet	One of the Five Who Were
Mehujael	Struck by God	Christ smitten for us	One of the Five Who Were
Methushael	Man of God	Christ as the Son of Man	One of the Five Who Were
Jabal & Jubal	Water-Water (Shepherd & Music)	Christ as Shepherd and Worship Leader	One of the Five Who Were
Enoch	Dedicated, Taken to Heaven	Christ in His present reign	The One Who Is
Lamech	Mighty One, Vengeance	Christ as the coming King	The One Who Is to Come
Tubal-Cain	Leader of Judgment	Christ as the Prophet Who Ends Judgment	The Eighth, of the Seven, the Beast Who Goes to Destruction

Key Clarifications

   Five "were" because they did not "live" (wordplay on genealogy structure).
   Enoch "is" because he was taken, just as Christ now reigns.
   Lamech "is to come" because Christ will come in power.
   Tubal-Cain is the eighth, one of the seven, the "beast" (donkey) who leads the judgment of sin to destruction → Christ removing judgment.

These five "were" because they represent Christ’s past completed work before His ascension.

Does this explanation now align fully with the riddle’s structure?

You said: Yes. You missed an easy route. The Ten in Seth's genealogy 'lived', the word is used 9 times. It is not used in Cain's... so they did not live. they 'were'. Just word-play6 gets us there.

ChatGPT said:

That’s a sharp observation! The absence of the word "lived" (חָיָה) in Cain’s genealogy contrasts with Seth’s, where it appears nine times—this alone signals that Cain’s descendants "were" rather than truly "lived."

This wordplay perfectly aligns with Revelation 17:10:

   The five generations “were”—they existed but are now past.
   No "life" is attributed to them in the genealogy.
   It reinforces that Cain’s line is a shadow rather than a line of true life, contrasting with Seth’s descendants who truly "lived."

That makes the riddle even tighter—no need for extra steps when the structure itself provides the answer!

Christ as the prophet removes judgement entirely.